Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF-LIT LOG9904C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:15:11 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: welcome etc. Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" okay - the large mass of people subscribing has slowed down. and i seem to have all the problems with the list cleared up. (well - this message is sort of a test as well as general notes) so - first of all, let me reiterate that this listserve is going to stay ON TOPIC, the topic being feminist science fiction. basically as soon as i started the other listserve some people wanted to chat more broadly and some people wanted to chat more narrowly. so this one is going to be more focused. for right now, we're not restricting media whatsoever. any book, tv, movie, or other media is okay. when it seems necessary (i.e., when i hear enough complaining from the lit folks about the tv/movie folks) then i'll do the next reconfiguration of the list system. so - that said, the list is now officially open for discussion. it will also be archived and i'm setting up the archives now. (and, i'll be setting up hypermail archives soon which will be making archive searching a LOT easier) laura quilter, list-mistress ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] new list - on topic only Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu, FEMINISTSF@listserv.uic.edu In-Reply-To: <199904172051.QAA11883@login1.fas.harvard.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII you know, guys, there's no reason that you can't have book discussion groups - parallel discussions of the same book - on both lists. there's enough people who have expressed interest, over the last several years, to a more focused group, that i think it'll be okay. which is not to say that this group should just go hog-wild with the completely irrelevant and off-topic postings. i *still* think the extraneous (and often stupid) virus warnings, "yeah me too" responses, and "no way you suck" responses are all unnecessary. but y'all can monitor them yourselves now. (you won't have me to kick around anymore - just kidding, i'm still here, but only to get rid of the worst abuses) laura quilter - list-mistress On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Claudia Mastroianni wrote: > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:51:22 -0400 > From: Claudia Mastroianni > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] new list - on topic only > > I agree with Marina. I understand that there are people who want discussions > to remain on topic. On the other hand, I feel that the BDG lends a vitality > to this list, and I feel that the sum of (this list minus the BDG) and > (on topic list) may well be less rich than the current state of affairs. > > I'll subscribe to the new list for now, but I'm skeptical whether I'll > stay for long. > > Claudia > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:44:52 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: new list, new proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with parallel discussions. Thanks Laura for bringing wisdom to the discussion. Actually I would like to propose two completely new ideas: One: monthly discussions of other media SFF. For instance, Buffy or the new Star Wars film. We could all agree to see a series of shows in the same month (Buffy) or to see the same movie (Star Wars) over a period of a month, and then discuss it together on list at a set point. About for instance: whether it is feminist in any way, how women are portrayed regardless, what world view/political perspective it does seem to be pushing. etc, etc. The "ancient" feminist criticism style of "reading against the grain" as it were. So that what we watch need not be necessarily feminist, but how we interpret it and discuss it will be as feminists. Two: similar things for SFF books. Instead of reading ONLY feminist (or supposed feminist) SFF on a BDG, to select any book we want by any author we wish, but applying rigorous feminist analysis/critique to the text. I am so saddened whenever the BDG ends up savaging what I know to be a heartfelt effort by a fellow feminist to write a book that respects and honors women in all their diversity. But under our harsh critical microscope all seem to fail. We end up savaging our own dearest femSFF authors. (V. McIntyre comes immediately to my mind.) I am flying my true colors here. How do they look? Help me flesh out these ideas if anyone is piqued by them at all??? donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:17:42 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marge Simpson Subject: Re: new list, new proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- donna simone wrote: "One: monthly discussions of other media SFF. For instance, Buffy or the new Star Wars film. We could all agree to see a series of shows in the same month (Buffy) or to see the same movie (Star Wars) over a period of a month, and then discuss it together on list at a set point." I like the idea of discussing film and TV, but if one hasn't been watching a TV series (Buffy), I think it would be a bit difficult to watch it for a month, then discuss it without knowing it's past episode/seasons. I don't know if we can have a set schedule for films, maybe as they come out, we can propose a film to be discussed in a months time after it's release date... "Two: similar things for SFF books. Instead of reading ONLY feminist (or supposed feminist) SFF on a BDG, to select any book we want by any author we wish, but applying rigorous feminist analysis/critique to the text" Yes! Let's discuss other works...I would love to discuss James Alan Gardner's Festina Ramos books. Thank God for a separate list. I was getting bogged down with some of the tangents the other list was taking. Ann Bever _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:01:26 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: new proposals- TV & Film In-Reply-To: <19990418011742.29885.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:17 PM 4/17/99 -0700, Marge Simpson wrote: >I like the idea of discussing film and TV, but if one hasn't been >watching a TV series (Buffy), I think it would be a bit difficult to >watch it for a month, then discuss it without knowing it's past >episode/seasons. I don't know if we can have a set schedule for films, >maybe as they come out, we can propose a film to be discussed in a >months time after it's release date... I like the idea of discussing TV and film. Although I may not be able to post much, ( LOL - that may be a bonus, no?:) I would enjoy hearing what others have to say. This is because TV series in particular, are approx 1-2 seasons behind the USA release here..also a 'cultural' thing, I guess. Buffy for example, is screened here in Children's TV time-slots, and is popular mostly with the 8-12 age group. So is Xena and X-files. I remember being so surprised when these shows were first mentioned on FSFFU, that so many adults were avid fans of the programmes:) Many years ago, John Pertwee (Dr Who star) arrived in Australia and was met at the airport by a bunch of 30 to 50 yr old fans. He was stunned in a later interview, because apparently in the UK, the sci-fi series Dr Who was a 'children's show' and his fans were usually around 12 in Britain. With movies though, they are usually released here within weeks of the US release - but I don't usually see them on the cinema release, I wait 2-3 months until video release. So, I don't mind spoilers or hearing what others have to say before I spend my few dollars on it:) The only time I was upset by spoilers on FSFFU, was when Dax died in DS9. Those episodes hadn't been released in Oz till about 6 weeks after USA release. One of the few TV series, that never seemed to be mentioned on FSFFU was Babylon 5. I used to watch it, in the first couple of seasons - but ended up so bored and disgusted with its sexism and stupidity, I stopped watching it altogether. >"Two: similar things for SFF books. Instead of reading ONLY feminist >(or supposed feminist) SFF on a BDG, to select any book we want by any >author we wish, but applying rigorous feminist analysis/critique to the >text" >Yes! Let's discuss other works...I would love to discuss James Alan >Gardner's Festina Ramos books. > >Thank God for a separate list. I was getting bogged down with some of >the tangents the other list was taking. Me too! Or Me three, even:)) Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Organization: The Written Word Subject: Re: new proposals- TV & Film In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990418120126.007ceb10@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I would welcome suggestions as to new feminist SF authors to read, and I was particularly taken with the Jaran series by Kate Elliot. Is so rough, having to wait for succeeding volumes of a trilogy. Since I seldom watch television or go out to see films, I may have to pass on the discussion of those. Liz -- Elizabeth Wicker Bennefeld http://home.att.net/~TheWrittenWord/ http://home.att.net/~PatchworkProse/ http://home.att.net/~WickerWorks/ http://www.sff.net/people/Bennefeld/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:28:17 EDT Reply-To: Quiltrek@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Barbera Radford Subject: (FSF-lit): Re: new list, new proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/99 5:57:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, donnaneely@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << Instead of reading ONLY feminist (or supposed feminist) SFF on a BDG, to select any book we want by any author we wish, but applying rigorous feminist analysis/critique to the text. >> Hear! Hear! There is much to be learned by reading the Other, and analyzing how it is "not the case", or is "almost the case". I've been reading the listserv (well, mostly) for some time now, and am not the least clear what qualifies as feminist sf. Discussing what is and is not feminist about a work will help clear this up immensely--or maybe identify where we're all unclear! That "rigorous feminist analysis/critique" sounds just a teensy bit intimidating to those of us with the nonliterary, not very academic backgrounds (there WAS no rigorous feminist etc when I studied literature). Those of you who can identify that might help the rest of us? A discussion guide perhaps would help get us started? Barbera ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:43:38 EDT Reply-To: Quiltrek@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Barbera Radford Subject: Re: new proposals- TV & Film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/99 10:13:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << With movies though... but I don't usually see them on the cinema release, I wait 2-3 months until video release.>>> Julieanne, maybe availability should be a criterion for nominating a movie for discussion. One way to assure availability is that the film is out on video. Surely there are tons of "old" films we could discuss and to which we could apply rigorous feminist analysis/critque??? Barbera ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:16:57 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: testing - please delete unread Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII are you actually reading this ? even after i SAID in the subject message "please delete unread"? wow Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: test 2 - please delete unread Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII still reading, huh? even after test 1 ? Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:34:46 EDT Reply-To: XenoThyme@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "B. Garrahy" Subject: Re: new proposals- TV & Film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbera suggested: <> I agree. Between the budget and the schedule, finding time to see movies at the cinema is difficult. Likewise, it is difficult to watch a television series on a weekly basis, and not all of us have cable television. I'd even bet there are a few of us who don't own televisions. :-) But I suspect that most everyone has access to a VCR, and watching a video for discussion is a wonderful idea! I, for one, am always a bit frustrated by viewing films and having no one to discuss them with, especially from a feminist perspective. I don't care for a lot of the tv on these days, but I do love videos. One of the things I liked most about college was watching videos for analysis, especially since I'm able to get feedback from my family members. Unfortunately, only a few of the books I love are tackled by the entire household, but everyone is happy to sit down a view a video, especially if I say I am going to discuss it. We are a very opinionated lot at my house! If we were to start a VDG, I would be thrilled to participate. Tossing in my pennies, Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:50:42 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura Quilter Subject: subject lines & testing - explanation (go ahead & read if you want) Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sorry y'all - i really was testing. altho i had set the list up to include a list header in the subject, send people's messages back to them, etc., i had forgotten that changing the default for new subscribers did not change the defaults for the current subscribers ... sigh. so i think things are set up pretty much a-okay. i've been asked why not set up subject headings for BDG or "off-topic". there is an informal / semi-formal protocol which some / most / many people follow about putting "OT" at the front of messages that are off-topic or "BDG" at the front of "book discussion group" messages. i have no way to effectively enforce this. there are some listserve gimmicks about sub-lists but my understanding is that they suck, so i'm not going to muck about with them. on THIS list there is not supposed to be "OT" anyway! Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:49:20 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Laura M Quilter Subject: oops - call for moderators again Comments: To: feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey y'all. i had a couple of nice people who wanted to be Semi-Official Moderator Analogs for the feministsf-lit list. please contact me again with "moderator" in the subject line. (do you want to know why? my home pc hard drive has failed and in the meantime i'm downloading mail to eudora at work, but i left the relevant emails on the network drive and can't access them from home right now and won't be in to work for two more days) ... Laura Quilter / lquilter@wenet.net "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:53:50 EDT Reply-To: Zozie@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: new list, new proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/99 10:16:17 PM, Marge wrote: <> As a rabid Buffy fan I can assure you it would be ok to jump in -- you would miss some of the relationship nuances to be sure, but seeing more than one episode would probably give us all food for discussion. (Besides, us Buffy-ites could fill in gaps as needed.) I think the same is true for several of the sf series -- Sliders, for instance. Donna's other suggestion, about not limiting ourselves to feminist sff is fine, so long as we stick with sff. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:44:11 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: test 2 - please delete unread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been lucky enough to fend off a couple of viruses, but I usually scroll through messages with the "next" button that doesn't tell me the message title. Laura Quilter wrote: > still reading, huh? even after test 1 ? > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org > > "If I can't dance, I don't want to be > in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman > > *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:32:52 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: new list, new proposals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >We could all agree to see a series of >shows in the same month (Buffy) or to see the same movie (Star Wars) over a >period of a month, and then discuss it together on list >at a set point. I should point out that this would cause some problems: not all list members are in the USA and TV programmes and films do not appear in other parts of the world on the same schedule as the US. The new Star Wars has not yet opened in the UK (and there are not even advance posters, so I guess it will be some months yet), and Buffy on BBC2 has only just started showing series 2 (and frequently postpones episodes to put World Snooker or whatever in that timeslot). And some of us, believe it or not, don't have videos! Lesley Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: new list, new proposals Donna said: >>Two: similar things for SFF books. Instead of reading ONLY feminist (or supposed feminist) SFF on a BDG, to select any book we want by any author we wish, but applying rigorous feminist analysis/critique to the text. I am so saddened whenever the BDG ends up savaging what I know to be a heartfelt effort by a fellow feminist to write a book that respects and honors women in all their diversity. But under our harsh critical microscope all seem to fail. We end up savaging our own dearest femSFF authors. (V. McIntyre comes immediately to my mind.)<< Since this list is to be on topic, I can hardly think discussing non-feminist science fiction would fit the intention. I'm assuming there are other venues for discussion of general science fiction, which I'm not interested in reading. I came to this place specifically because I want to read and discuss "feminist" science fiction. I don't think criticizing a work necessarily savages it. I do believe you're right, Donna, that V. McIntyre was hurt over some of the comments about Dreamsnake. That surprised me because, over all, the discussion, from my perspective, was very favorable to the book. There will always be those who don't like a book in general (as I felt about Jaran) or want to question certain aspects of a story, but there are plenty of people on the list who go to the other extreme and gush over the same aspects (again thinking of my own reaction to Mists and Female Man). These differences of opinion are what make the discussion interesting. In the long run I believe they're favorable to the our sister feminists because, not only do they promote a more complete appreciation of their works, they sell books. I know I have bought many books due to discussion that I would have completely overlooked otherwise. There are many under read and under appreciated feminist books out there. Let's bring them to light and discuss them. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:55:25 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: new proposals- TV & Film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbera, et al: I like the idea of visiting some of the stuff available on video and what not. I do love Buffy and Xena, but in my bi-weekly-in-person discussion group, we often spend time off topic discussing developments on one or both shows. We all are planning to meet chez moi next month for the Buffy finale, in fact. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in discussing these with y'all. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:27:35 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: another proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and another..... Until we decide if we will have a formal BDG, why dont folks just mention titles that are surfacing to the top of their reading pile. If other folks have it around or are interested enough to fetch it from the library or bookstore, they can put it atop their own reading pile and perhaps when the time comes, more than one person will have read the same text? we have long maintained a tradition on the other list of just bringing up books one has recently read. Perhaps telescoping a bit will help us create a more informal book sharing/discussion. I would love to know what is coming up for someone, because I so enjoy sharing the reading experience. Even if only with one other reader. For instance, I recently read Mission Child (MC). It is extraordinary. I feel as strongly about it as almost any book I have read in a while. I also believe the Tiptree jury made a tragic error in not crediting McHugh with the Tiptree award for novel this year. (Speaking of, how do folks feel about the Tiptree choices? Have they missed anything over the years?) I believe she did something with gender in MC that has not yet been done. She manages to work with gender in her text as a performative act, which is exactly what the cutting edge gender studies folks are all hot about at this very moment. Well at least that is what _I_ see going on in the book. Have I enticed anyone to talk with me about this book? I will even wait for you to find it and read it. I may even read it again while I am at it. donna (who is cooking up ever more ideas) donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:14 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: another proposal: Mission Child In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 99 19:27:35 EDT." <00da01be8abc$36c7c8a0$79b21b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm reading _Mission Child_ right now (as fast as I can, it's overdue at the library). I'd love to discuss this when I finish, not first, I'm so completely unable to predict the ending that I don't want any surprises! I am far enough through that it looks like just the sort of thing for the Tiptree. What was the awarded novel this year? jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:10:59 EDT Reply-To: Zozie@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re [*FSFFU-LIT*]Cherryh/Weber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/19/99 11:28:10 PM, Donna wrote: <> I need some help. I have been struggling through Cherryh's Exile's Gate. I can't connect with it. A fantasy reader not connecting? Cherryh's work has come up onlist several times, most recently a propos of my question about what work the heroines do in sff. I don't "get" Morgaine. Somebody help me out here. How do others on the list feel about this book, or Cherryh's work in general? I am just bored with it. Incidentally, I am still thinking about the "jobs" that women have in sff. In my own novel, it's a subsistence economy in my invented world. There are some specific tasks: bread bakers, woodworkers, the guy who keeps goats, et al, and many shared tasks that benefit the entire community. As I develop this world, I've thought a lot about what people do with their time. It is based primarily on my own encounters with indigenous peoples around the world, plus research, plus my imagining a middle bronze age culture. A lot of the "jobs" in the sciFi I've read are really dead-in ones. Can Weber actually spin Honor into running the entire Universe? She is the honcho of the fleet, and a Statsholder of Grayson. What's next? She does actually work, to be sure. But, in the absence of war with the PEEPS, does she just retire to Grayson and sign documents. She has lots of help with administrative things... I heard on one list or another that Weber has a 16-book deal... so we have lots to look forward to. Or do we? best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com Sorry this is long and a little rambling, but something is niggling at me here. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:25:09 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: another proposal: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I'm reading _Mission Child_ right now (as fast as I can, it's overdue at the > library). I'd love to discuss this when I finish Me too---are we setting a deadline? Suze/Severna ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:33:06 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hooooorrrraaaahhhh!!!! And Jessie too! No spoilers from me. < I am far enough through that it looks like just the sort of thing for the Tiptree. What was the awarded novel this year?> No novel was selected for award this year. Only a short story award was given (R. Carter). donna donnaneely@earthlink.net jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I'm reading _Mission Child_ right now (as fast as I can, it's overdue >> at the library). I'd love to discuss this when I finish Great Suze. Makes three yippee! I say you and jessie, and any others, just weigh in when you are done? Say a week or so? I was trying to stay away from deadlines, I guess. I have so much of that at work. But louder voices can rule on this one. I have already finished. Or we can do a good job on spoiler notices, so those not quite finished wont have the story ruined? donna ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Recent Reading In-Reply-To: <00da01be8abc$36c7c8a0$79b21b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:27 PM 4/19/99 -0400, donna simone wrote: >Until we decide if we will have a formal BDG, why dont folks just >mention titles that are surfacing to the top of their reading pile. Okay! Just yesterday I finished *Jaran*. Can't say I liked it that much -- I agree with others who were bothered by the romance, not because I have a problem with romance, but because I thought Ilya was an asshole. I did not enjoy reading about his attempts to bend Tess to his will -- passion is not an excuse. But more about that in a full-fledged BDG message... Today I gulped down *The Ruby Tear* by Suzy McKee Charnas, which suffered from a too-blithe adoption of genre romance/vampire novel style, I thought, but was very satisfying in its divergences from the expected, particularly at the end. Somewhat recently I reread *Ring of Swords* by Eleanor Arnason and would enjoy talking about it (particularly as it was passed over for the BDG this past round). Ditto for Pamela Dean's *Tam Lin*, which upon my second reading seemed a lot nastier in a subtle way than I remembered it being... A couple of months ago I read Susan Matthews' third installment in her Andrej Koscuisko epic, *Hour of Judgment*, which, though certainly not feminist, continues to puzzle me in a rewarding way. I keep waiting to hear the punch line. And a very rewarding recent read was Maureen McHugh's *Half the Day Is Night*. I think I've finally learned how to read McHugh's work, because this one was a pleasure from start to finish, whereas her other novels have had to sneak up on me and catch me only near the end. I look forward to rereading them, perhaps spurred by a discussion of *Mission Child* when everyone else is ready? Next on the agenda is either Linda Nagata's *The Bohr Maker* or Jewelle Gomez' *The Gilda Stories*. So much to read, so little time! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Hooverphonic -- Blue Wonder Power Milk "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:39:22 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Janice E. Dawley" wrote: > At 07:27 PM 4/19/99 -0400, donna simone wrote: > >Until we decide if we will have a formal BDG, why dont folks just > >mention titles that are surfacing to the top of their reading pile. > Hi, Recent reads: _The Color of Distance_ --Amy Thomson I liked the depictions of indigenous and alien (human) culture. Ms. Thomson has another title coming out soon, _Through Alien Eyes_, to which I am happily looking forward. _The Radiant Seas_ Catherine Asaro _The Last Hawk_ _Primary Inversion_ and I've got the other one of the four on hold at the library. I've really gotten into the Skolian world. I don't think I've ever been introduced to a more chilling group than the Aristos. It's unlike me to put up with such evil characters--Asaro does a good enough job of keeping the horror manageable. Also on hold for me are: Arnason's _Ring of Swords_ and _Woman of the Iron People_ Dean's _Tam Lin_ McHugh's _Half the Day is Night_ Nagata's _The Bohr Maker_ and, finally _Mission Child_. > Somewhat recently I reread *Ring of Swords* by Eleanor Arnason and would > enjoy talking about it (particularly as it was passed over for the BDG this > past round). Ditto for Pamela Dean's *Tam Lin*, which upon my second > reading seemed a lot nastier in a subtle way than I remembered it being... > > And a very rewarding recent read was Maureen McHugh's *Half the Day Is > Night*.Next on the agenda is either Linda Nagata's *The Bohr Maker* or > Jewelle > Gomez' *The Gilda Stories*. So much to read, so little time! I'll be ready soon. The Arnasons listed above are re-reads for me, so I should be up to speed soon. Most of the others will be firsts. As far as I'm concerned, spoiler alerts would be enough for me regarding whatever everyone else wishes to discuss. Whenever people post their current reading list, I always learn of several new titles. :) Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:26:22 EDT Reply-To: JGOLTZMAN@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joanna Goltzman Bruscell Subject: Recent reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. Lindy, I didn't know Amy Thomson had written other books. I recently finished _Virtual Girl_. have you read it? I liked it, but there were parts I thought could have been improved upon. I also recently read Nicola Griffith's _Slow River_ (I know I'm ahead of the BDG). I'm not quite sure what I think of _Slow River_ yet. I might have to read it again. I liked it, but I'm not sure why. And the SF elements seemed totally secondary to the story, as if the same story could have been written with a completely different setting. I love Arnason's _A Woman of the Iron People_ and have _Ring of Swords_ on my to read list. I'm looking forward to our on topic discussions! Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:29:18 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joyce Jones Subject: time table I'd love to discuss Mission Child, but I just got it and won't be able to get into it this week. Any chance we could set the discussion for 3 weeks from now? Or how's this? BDG is the first Monday of the month. How about we try for the 3rd Monday? That'd work out to a new discussion every 2 weeks, that's about as much as I'd be able to handle if I plan to live my real life outside the computer. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:47:17 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: donna simone Subject: Re: Recent Reading/Time frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (some and some not so) Recent reads: Primary Inversion - Asaro Freedom & Necessity - Brust/Bull Slow River - Griffith Mission Child (as prev. mentioned) *************************** Now going to the top of the pile to have fellow readers/sharers: Ring of Swords - Arnason Half the Day is Night -McHugh The Bohr Maker - Nagata Tam Lin - Dean As to time frames. If we want to solidify it, I vote for say....Mission Child in two weeks? So we would begin discussion of Mission Child say on Monday, 4 May, which works out to be the 1st Monday of the month as well? I also vote for good use of spoilers while folks catch up or finish the text. Though I dont think any of this should stop anyone from talking about whatever books they want to discuss. For instance I am wondering if any of the folks who wanted to discuss In the Mothers Land (Vonarburg) are here on this list as well. I posted some comments (finally) to the other list but would be delighted to repost here. That book is still on my mind. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net _The Color of Distance_ --Amy Thomson I liked the depictions of indigenous and alien (human) culture. Ms. Thomson has another title coming out soon, _Through Alien Eyes_, to which I am happily looking forward. _The Radiant Seas_ Catherine Asaro _The Last Hawk_ _Primary Inversion_ and I've got the other one of the four on hold at the library. I've really gotten into the Skolian world. I don't think I've ever been introduced to a more chilling group than the Aristos. It's unlike me to put up with such evil characters--Asaro does a good enough job of keeping the horror manageable. Also on hold for me are: Arnason's _Ring of Swords_ and _Woman of the Iron People_ Dean's _Tam Lin_ McHugh's _Half the Day is Night_ Nagata's _The Bohr Maker_ and, finally _Mission Child_. > Somewhat recently I reread *Ring of Swords* by Eleanor Arnason and would > enjoy talking about it (particularly as it was passed over for the BDG this > past round). Ditto for Pamela Dean's *Tam Lin*, which upon my second > reading seemed a lot nastier in a subtle way than I remembered it being... > > And a very rewarding recent read was Maureen McHugh's *Half the Day Is > Night*.Next on the agenda is either Linda Nagata's *The Bohr Maker* or > Jewelle > Gomez' *The Gilda Stories*. So much to read, so little time! I'll be ready soon. The Arnasons listed above are re-reads for me, so I should be up to speed soon. Most of the others will be firsts. As far as I'm concerned, spoiler alerts would be enough for me regarding whatever everyone else wishes to discuss. Whenever people post their current reading list, I always learn of several new titles. :) Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:55:45 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: time table MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds good to me. I have three chapters to polish off on my own book, and I was getting all anxious over here with that not-enough-time-to-do-it-all thing. Suze/Severna Joyce Jones wrote: > I'd love to discuss Mission Child, but I just got it and won't be able to > get into it this week. Any chance we could set the discussion for 3 weeks > from now? Or how's this? BDG is the first Monday of the month. How about > we try for the 3rd Monday? That'd work out to a new discussion every 2 > weeks, that's about as much as I'd be able to handle if I plan to live my > real life outside the computer. > > Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:43:55 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Recent Reading/Time frames In-Reply-To: <004d01be8b1b$29b5a2e0$c1b11b26@donna> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:47 AM 4/20/99 -0400, donna simone wrote: > >As to time frames. If we want to solidify it, I vote for say....Mission >Child in two weeks? So we would begin discussion of Mission Child say on >Monday, 4 May, which works out to be the 1st Monday of the month as well? >I also vote for good use of spoilers while folks catch up or finish the >text. > I support discussion of Mission Child, even though it will not be released here for some time, probably not until a paper-back edition becomes available. I may be silly, but I love spoilers on the list for things I havent read - spoilers are no different to reviews and often better, as they open up things formal reviews often miss:)) As for my reading in feministish sci-fi/fantasy, I have recently finished: Flying Cups & Saucers - Tiptree short-story collection The Rising of the Moon - Flynn Connolly The Last Hawk - Catherine Asaro Rider at the Gate - C J Cherryh Deed of Paksenarrion Book 1 - Elizabeth Moon Kerrion Saga trilogy - Janet Morris A Point of Honour - Dorothy J Heydt Currently reading: Vast - Linda Nagata To be read: Six Moon Dance, Sideshow & Grass - Sheri S Tepper Borderline - Sci-fi Short Story/Novella Collection - Leanne Frahm Archangel - Sharon Shinn Cloud's Rider - C J Cherryh Island in the Sea of Time - S M Stirling Also have a stack of wonderfully feministish sci-fi stuff from the 1950s & 60s of totally obscure women authors. I stumbled over them in a second-hand/antiquarian book sale a few months ago:) But dunno when I will get around to them - *shrug* Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: Recent Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Recent reads: _Catch The Lightning_ Catherine Asaro (I read _Primary Inversion_ a little too long ago to call it "recent" ;-) _Night Sky Mine_ Melissa Scott _Mindplayers_ Pat Cadigan (I couldn't remember the name and just did a quick web search to find it--I'm surprised to find that it was her first!) Current read: _The Last Hawk_ Catherine Asaro Top of the stack: _The Radiant Seas_ Catherine Asaro (picked up at ICFA in March) The other M. Scott novels on the shelf ...too many other to list right now... ;-) I've read _The Bohr Maker_ and the other two in that series by Nagata, and I'd be happy to talk about them. I've also read _Synners_ (Cadigan) in the last year or so, and I'd like to talk about that one, too. Pax, -allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:48:27 EDT Reply-To: JGOLTZMAN@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joanna Goltzman Bruscell Subject: Virtual Girl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lindy wrote: I remember vaguely (incorrectly?) that _Virtual Girl_ crosses audience "age" lines between young adult and adult reading. . . I hope so. I'm always on the lookout for feminist YA science fiction. ********************** I hadn't thought of _Virtual Girl_ as YA book when I read it, but now that you mention it, I bet young audiences would enjoy it. It's about Maggie, who is a cyborg created by a lonely man as his companion, and Maggie's journey toward becoming a true, independent self. I liked most of it very much. The story kind of falls apart at the end. Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:25:06 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Recent Reads: _Black Swan, White Raven_ (fairy tale anthology; fourth in a series edited by Datlow and Windling) I LOVED "the preacher's wife". High point of my week! :) _Primary Inversion_ by Asaro - thought it was great; looking forward to the rest of the Skolian books! _Pattern Master_ and the Xenogenesis trilogy by Butler I kept being frustrated with the attitudes of the characters, but I couldn't stop reading, either; totally drew me in, and at the end, made me think a lot; deceptively simple storylines with lots to think about behind them. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of her books - anybody have any suggestions on order to read them in? _Acorna_ and _The Masterharper of Pern_ by McCaffrey Definitely NOT feminist, but the Harper Hall trilogy were some of my early SF/F reads, so _Masterharper_ was very nostalgic; I kept expecting to hear that Thread had started, and Robinton's father had died at half-circle, and then see Menolly show up with the firelizards, and start hearing about Peimur, all from Robinton's POV. It was still good even though it never went that far (it would probably take a whole 'nother book). I found Acorna to be an OK story, done reasonably well, and I'll probably read "Acorna's Quest", just to see if they talk more about saving all those slave kids, and how well that works. Current Books: Lots of Charles DeLint. I LOVED "Jack of Kinrowan" (I read it when I was trying to read all the "adult fairy tale" series), so I recently picked up a whole bunch of his stuff; I'm still in the first one I picked up, which is _The Little Country_. Very good so far! Anybody have any suggestions on what order to read the rest of his books in? speaking of the "adult fairy tale" series; is there a comprehensive list anywhere of books that were part of that? I'm hoping I've caught them all (I didn't read ONE that I didn't really really like), but I was finding the books by looking in the fronts of others and seeing the lists, so there might be later ones that I haven't found. Ones I remember: Tam Lin (Dean) The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars (Brust) Snow White and Rose Red (Wrede) Briar Rose (Yolen) Jack of Kinrowan (deLint) I'm pretty sure there were more that I've read, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I've never been able to get through the first 50 pages of a Nagato book without putting it down, bored; I've tried VAST and (I think) Bohr Maker. Anybody have any ideas why? Are they actually feminist? -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Briggs [mailto:briggs@NINTHWONDER.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:16 AM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Recent Reading > > > Recent reads: > _Catch The Lightning_ Catherine Asaro (I read _Primary Inversion_ a > little too long ago to call it "recent" ;-) > _Night Sky Mine_ Melissa Scott > _Mindplayers_ Pat Cadigan (I couldn't remember the name and just did a > quick web search to find it--I'm surprised to find that it was > her first!) > > Current read: > _The Last Hawk_ Catherine Asaro > > Top of the stack: > _The Radiant Seas_ Catherine Asaro (picked up at ICFA in March) > The other M. Scott novels on the shelf > ...too many other to list right now... ;-) > > I've read _The Bohr Maker_ and the other two in that series by Nagata, > and I'd be happy to talk about them. I've also read > _Synners_ (Cadigan) > in the last year or so, and I'd like to talk about that one, too. > > Pax, > -allen > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:45:45 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Mission Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, MISSION CHILD BDG starts when? Maryelizabeth been wanting to read it anyway, might as well get it off the TBR pile... -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:48:02 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just read GILDA STORIES for the MG book discussion group, would love to chat with y'all about it as well! Don't suppose anyone else is ready to discuss SINGER FROM THE SEA, the new Tepper, yet? Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:16:49 EDT Reply-To: JGOLTZMAN@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Joanna Goltzman Bruscell Subject: The Maerlande Chronicles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love this book! *Spoilers follow* I agree with the person who said the speaker in the last chapter is Kelys. The speaker throws the reader off at first by saying Kelys died forty years ago, but I take this to mean that the speaker does not call herself Kelys anymore. Notice the speaker says Kelys body never was found. Evidence and observations: The speaker talks about meeting Selva in the council room and says Selva is "one of mine. . . despite the two generations since my last stop in Bethely," hinting that Selva is a descendent of the speaker. So the speaker takes the male's place and conceives Lisbei with Selva. The speaker then, if she is Kelys, can turn into a man at will. The speaker talks about Garde as if she is a peer. The speaker says she, like Garde, lived among Lisbei's people as one of them. I think I decided the speaker definitely is Kelys when she says "Antone fell in love with me." This totally applies to Kelys. Furthermore, the speaker says she was there when Yemen, Lisbei's daughter, was born, and Kelys was with Lisbei throughout the pregnancy. And finally, At the end Yemen tells the speaker that the speaker reminded Lisbei of a male Kelys. So this is why I think the speaker at the end is Kelys. What do other people think? Joanna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:15:55 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I've never been able to get through the first 50 pages of a Nagato book >without putting it down, bored; I'm glad someone else has this experience! though it's more that I put it down and just don't feel motivated to pick it up again. Lesley Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: Candioglos, Sandy To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 20 April 1999 17:44 Subject: Re: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Recent Reading >Recent Reads: > >_Black Swan, White Raven_ (fairy tale anthology; fourth in a series edited >by Datlow and Windling) > I LOVED "the preacher's wife". High point of my week! :) > >_Primary Inversion_ by Asaro - thought it was great; looking forward to the >rest of the Skolian books! > >_Pattern Master_ and the Xenogenesis trilogy by Butler > I kept being frustrated with the attitudes of the characters, but I >couldn't stop reading, either; totally drew me in, and at the end, made me >think a lot; deceptively simple storylines with lots to think about behind >them. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of her books - anybody have >any suggestions on order to read them in? > >_Acorna_ and _The Masterharper of Pern_ by McCaffrey > Definitely NOT feminist, but the Harper Hall trilogy were some of my >early SF/F reads, so _Masterharper_ was very nostalgic; I kept expecting to >hear that Thread had started, and Robinton's father had died at half-circle, >and then see Menolly show up with the firelizards, and start hearing about >Peimur, all from Robinton's POV. It was still good even though it never >went that far (it would probably take a whole 'nother book). I found >Acorna to be an OK story, done reasonably well, and I'll probably read >"Acorna's Quest", just to see if they talk more about saving all those slave >kids, and how well that works. > >Current Books: > >Lots of Charles DeLint. I LOVED "Jack of Kinrowan" (I read it when I was >trying to read all the "adult fairy tale" series), so I recently picked up a >whole bunch of his stuff; I'm still in the first one I picked up, which is >_The Little Country_. Very good so far! Anybody have any suggestions on >what order to read the rest of his books in? > >speaking of the "adult fairy tale" series; is there a comprehensive list >anywhere of books that were part of that? I'm hoping I've caught them all >(I didn't read ONE that I didn't really really like), but I was finding the >books by looking in the fronts of others and seeing the lists, so there >might be later ones that I haven't found. Ones I remember: > >Tam Lin (Dean) >The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars (Brust) >Snow White and Rose Red (Wrede) >Briar Rose (Yolen) >Jack of Kinrowan (deLint) > >I'm pretty sure there were more that I've read, but I can't think of them >off the top of my head. > I've tried VAST and (I think) Bohr Maker. >Anybody have any ideas why? Are they actually feminist? > > -Sandy > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Allen Briggs [mailto:briggs@NINTHWONDER.COM] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:16 AM >> To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU-LIT*] Recent Reading >> >> >> Recent reads: >> _Catch The Lightning_ Catherine Asaro (I read _Primary Inversion_ a >> little too long ago to call it "recent" ;-) >> _Night Sky Mine_ Melissa Scott >> _Mindplayers_ Pat Cadigan (I couldn't remember the name and just did a >> quick web search to find it--I'm surprised to find that it was >> her first!) >> >> Current read: >> _The Last Hawk_ Catherine Asaro >> >> Top of the stack: >> _The Radiant Seas_ Catherine Asaro (picked up at ICFA in March) >> The other M. Scott novels on the shelf >> ...too many other to list right now... ;-) >> >> I've read _The Bohr Maker_ and the other two in that series by Nagata, >> and I'd be happy to talk about them. I've also read >> _Synners_ (Cadigan) >> in the last year or so, and I'd like to talk about that one, too. >> >> Pax, >> -allen >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:16:17 +0100 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Re [*FSFFU-LIT*]Cherryh/Weber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I need some help. I have been struggling through Cherryh's Exile's Gate. I >can't connect with it. Isn't this vol 4 of the Chronicles of Morgaine? You don't say whether you've read the preceding vols - sometimes jumping into a late, or even a middle, vol in a series is disorientating. A lot of the 'jobs' people have in fantasy (if not, overtly, in sf?) are Saviour of the World, apart from all the individuals who are (apparently) making livings in some form of magic, as professional thieves, assassins, courtesans, etc. Though is this always thought through? (see Diana Wynne-Jones _Tough Guide to Fantasy-Land_ on inadequately created economic and ecological systems!) Best Lesley Just beginning Jane Routley's _Fire Angels_ (sequel to _MageHeart_) in which Our Heroine, at the start, is working as a village healer. And having recently finished _Six Moon Dance_: Tepper on good, if not top, form, IMO. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:21:50 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: brahms Subject: Re: Recent Reading / The Maerland Chronicles In-Reply-To: <371BA492.15C3@ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to say first off that I'm really excited to have a serious, on-topic list. I was getting very tired of watching people flame each other over bizarre bastardizations of popular science. I only added the new list a couple of days ago, so please forgive if I'm being repititious: I was wondering if, as well as Mission Child, we have any plans to discuss Sherri Tepper's Grass for next month. My feeling about the book is that it is definitely worthy of some serious discussions, and at this point, I am sort of afraid of what kind of discussion I might see on the off-topic list. I would like to add my vote towards the Maerland Chronicles as well. It has been a while for me, but I think it might be time to pick it up again! My recent reads: Hand of Prophesy (Severna Park) -- I loved this book and would like to discuss it with someone. A portrait of a woman whose people were bred as "companions" (emotional slaves) to another race, and her journey toward independence. What I loved most is that, even while seeking independence, she still let herself be emotionally tangled in her relationships with other people, and in so doing, never lost what was most central to herself. The Child Garden (Geoff Ryman)-- Have any of you read this somewhat obscure novel? I reccomend it highly (have read it four times), and would love to discuss it at some point. In a nutshell, it's the story of a woman, Milena, who is resistant to the viruses that her future-era culture uses to genetically engineer its populace. These viruses strengthen abilities, disseminate encyclopedic knowledge, and, most importantly, inforce "acceptable" behavior patterns. Without these behaviors and knowledges, Milena is "disabled", a social outcast. The story focuses on her search for love and an understanding of her sexuality, and ultimately, it is about the ways in which she profoundly changes her culture through art (opera). I have never read a sci-fi work that is so lyrical, hopeful, and spiritually profound, even in the midst of a sometimes horrific culture, and I should also mention that I have never read a work that is so unselfconsciously feminist by a male author. Black Wine (Candas Jane Dorsey) Well-written but somehow boring. Sarah Canary (Karen Joy Fowler) Bored the whole way through but came away thinking it had been a great read, just because Fowler united everything so well in the end. Jaran -- Ugh (my fantasy tolerance is low!) -Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:59:10 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Recent Reading In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990419221338.007405d8@together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Janice E. Dawley wrote: (snip) > Next on the agenda is either Linda Nagata's *The Bohr Maker* or Jewelle > Gomez' *The Gilda Stories*. So much to read, so little time! *The Bohr Maker* is next on my list of books to read. I will also be ordering *The Gilda Stories* next month (I ordered a whole stack of books recently so TGS will have to wait until I have funds). I will probably be finised with TBM by Monday. Want to start a discussion for Monday? > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How I envy all of you! I am in a serious push to finish my dissertation right now so pretty much all I get to read are the books I'm using and stuff about them: Starhawk, FIfth Sacred Thing; Ursula Leguin _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ and Octavia Butler's Parable book's, which I like so much less than I used to! Please, can we *not* discuss any of these books? I looked at the description of Mission Child and would really like to read it! Even though it would mean being bad, I would slip it in if we decide to go ahead with it. Meanwhile...unlike some others, I'm yearning to read the next Jaran books. Sigh! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:37:28 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Severna Park (SPOILERS) (was:Recent Reading...) In-Reply-To: <000001be8b6b$6c2b6f60$0b1efad0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, brahms wrote: (snip) > Hand of Prophesy (Severna Park) -- I loved this book and would like to > discuss it with someone. A portrait of a woman whose people were bred as > "companions" (emotional slaves) to another race, and her journey toward > independence. What I loved most is that, even while seeking independence, > she still let herself be emotionally tangled in her relationships with other > people, and in so doing, never lost what was most central to herself. > -Rachel I really enjoyed this book. I'm still thinking about it even though I read it several weeks ago. As much as I liked *Speaking Dreams* I liked *Hand of Prophecy* better. One thing I really liked about HoP was the idea that a person can create their own destiny. Frenna had to grow and change in order to be free. It wasn't chains that made her a slave as much as it was her inability to see a life for herself as a free person. Before she could be free she had to realise that freedom was possible. I like the world that SP created and her characters are realistically drawn. Her bad guys aren't evil stereotypes and her good guys aren't saints. The slave owners are chillingly real-- their souls are so deeply callused that they don't see slaves as human yet they can mourn the death of a dog and would be horrified if a horse were treated the same way they treat their slaves. I'm still trying to formulate my thought about these books. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:34:07 EDT Reply-To: Zozie@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/20/99 11:19:09 PM, Susan wrote: <> Me, too! My stack of TBR is taller than my futon, providing a perch for catboys... finished Wild Seed, To Say Nothing of the Dog (laughing out loud all the way through), and Slow River; messing around with and have stopped on Cherryh's Exile's Gate (and now I know why I can't make sense of it -- I started with the last book of a series instead of the first); just finished McCaffrey et al's trilogy now called The Planet Pirates; catching up on old books, you see. Next in line: Tiptree's Brightness Falls from the Air and Stephen Leigh's Dark Water's Embrace. And I'll be hunting down the other Jaran books. Will try to get a copy of Mission Child. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Suzanne Feldman Subject: Re: Severna Park (SPOILERS) (was:Recent Reading...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you both for the kind words. It's good to know that people other than my close friends and family are buying, reading and enjoying. Suze/Severna Stacey Holbrook wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, brahms wrote: > > (snip) > > Hand of Prophesy (Severna Park) -- I loved this book and would like to > > discuss it with someone. A portrait of a woman whose people were bred as > > "companions" (emotional slaves) to another race, and her journey toward > > independence. What I loved most is that, even while seeking independence, > > she still let herself be emotionally tangled in her relationships with other > > people, and in so doing, never lost what was most central to herself. > > -Rachel > > I really enjoyed this book. I'm still thinking about it even though I read > it several weeks ago. As much as I liked *Speaking Dreams* I liked *Hand > of Prophecy* better. > > One thing I really liked about HoP was the idea that a person can create > their own destiny. Frenna had to grow and change in order to be free. It > wasn't chains that made her a slave as much as it was her inability to see > a life for herself as a free person. Before she could be free she had to > realise that freedom was possible. > > I like the world that SP created and her characters are realistically > drawn. Her bad guys aren't evil stereotypes and her good guys aren't > saints. The slave owners are chillingly real-- their souls are so deeply > callused that they don't see slaves as human yet they can mourn the death > of a dog and would be horrified if a horse were treated the same way they > treat their slaves. > > I'm still trying to formulate my thought about these books. I would love > to hear what everyone else thinks. > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:12:51 -0400 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: heather Subject: Re: Recent Reading In-Reply-To: <01ff01be8b5a$012e94a0$ca2f70c3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>speaking of the "adult fairy tale" series; is there a comprehensive list >>anywhere of books that were part of that? I'm hoping I've caught them all >>(I didn't read ONE that I didn't really really like), but I was finding the >>books by looking in the fronts of others and seeing the lists, so there >>might be later ones that I haven't found. Ones I remember: >> >>Tam Lin (Dean) >>The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars (Brust) >>Snow White and Rose Red (Wrede) >>Briar Rose (Yolen) >>Jack of Kinrowan (deLint) >> >>I'm pretty sure there were more that I've read, but I can't think of them >>off the top of my head. The list in Briar Rose (1992) mentions two more: Jack the Giant Killer (deLint) The Nightingale (Dalkey) Other adult fairy tales which may or may not be part of the series include some versions of Beauty and the Beast: Winter Rose by Patricia McKillip (sort of) Beauty by Robin McKinley Rose Daughter by Robin McKinley And then there's the adult fairy tales/short story collections edited by Windling and Ellen Datlow: Snow White, Blood Red Black Thorn, White Rose Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears Black Swan, White Raven, Silver Birch, Blood Moon Heather, whose to-be-read sf fills one of three dedicated sf bookcases. ........................................................... heather / \ kebbo@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:30:45 GMT Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Robin Reid Subject: Tepper's GRASS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd LOVE to talk about GRASS: it is one of my absolutely favorite novels in the universe, and while I like, enjoy, or love a good deal of Tepper's work in general, I think this novel is my FAVORITE. I'd love to post my recent reading, but *sniff*, it's been ALL related to school (i.e. students writing that I have to read, ok I did assign it but still). So, GRASS..... SPOILER ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * I remember the first time I saw it in hardback, I somehow did not pick it up (economy, the first page or two didn't grab me), but then I got it in paperback (I'm a completist what can I say), and it totally hooked me. Ilove Marjorie Westriding (although after a lot of years of reading and thinking about her, I can see she might be a bit of a difficult person to live with), I love what Tepper has done in extrapolating a future Earth society dominated by one religion (an evolved Church of the Latter Day Saints), and I especially love the planet GRASS and her alien lifeforms, and the Mystery that Marjorie solves. I did a presentation on it (my first Real Presentation) analyzing its epic structure--in fact, I argued that the novel is a feminist epic re/vision of DUNE. A lot of the narrative structure (that long intro that is the 'praise' of Grass is what most epics start with) and characters (the nobility/commons social hierarchy that she deconstructs) and plot are very much like a traditional epic, but by putting a woman, a mother (and having her quest be the rescue of her daughter from the Underworld), I'd say it's also profoundly feminist. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:44:04 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Marge Simpson Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm overwhelmed by all the suggestions being given....so much to read...can we set up a timeline and list? We are starting with "Mission Child", which I need to reread...I'm glad we're discussing this for I had mixed feelings about the book... On my reading shelf waiting for me is... The Moon & The Sun-Vonda McIntyre Beholders Eye-Julie Czerneda Of Swords & Spells-Delia Marshall Turner plus a growing list generated by all your suggestions.. What I would like to discuss... Expendable and/or Vigilant-James Alan Gardner Eleanor Arnason's books Child Garden-Geoff Ryman (I read this years ago and was blown away..) Thanks Ann Bever _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Severna Park (SPOILERS) (was:Recent Reading...) In-Reply-To: <371D3315.39D8AC4E@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Suzanne Feldman wrote: > Thank you both for the kind words. It's good to know that people > other than my close friends and family are buying, reading and > enjoying. Suze/Severna I'm just glad I had some nice things to say about your books. I've gotten so picky about what I read lately that it is getting hard to find books that I really like. So I should be thanking you-- Thanks! Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Liz Bennefeld Organization: The Written Word Subject: Re: Recent Reading In-Reply-To: <020001be8b5a$02213200$ca2f70c3@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I must have missed a message, somewhere. Who wrote Mission Child? I've never come across the title before. Thanks! Liz Some of the books that I've read/reread and enjoyed recently: The Moon and the Sun, by Vonda McIntyre Exile's Song, by Marion Zimmer Bradley Fool's War, by Sarah Zettel Remnant Population, by Elizabeth Moon Medicine Show, by Jody Lynn Nye Earth Herald, by Jan Clark 40,000 in Gehenna, by C. J. Cherryh Lightwing, by Tara K. Harper Anvil of the Sun, by Anne Lesley Groell Waterdance, by Anne Logston and non-SF: Thrones, Dominations, by Dorothy L. Sayers & Jill Paton Walsh -- Elizabeth Wicker Bennefeld http://home.att.net/~TheWrittenWord/ http://home.att.net/~PatchworkProse/ http://home.att.net/~WickerWorks/ http://www.sff.net/people/Bennefeld/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:29:08 EDT Reply-To: TMBouwman@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Tanya Bouwman Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 19 Apr 1999 to 20 Apr 1999--RECENT READING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just finished Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of Time" and would love to discuss it with anyone who has read it--recently or otherwise. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:47:56 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Liz Bennefeld wrote: snip. > Some of the books that I've read/reread and enjoyed recently: > > snip. > Remnant Population, by Elizabeth Moon-- I've had this one for a few weeks, and I still haven't finished it. I keep putting it down in favor of other novels. I don't know why I'm having such difficulty getting through it-- I like the main character very much. The story line is complicated enough to maintain interest. I'm appreciating having an old woman character as central character. I see her as an unlikely hero because she'd learned over the years to submit to others: her family (spouse and children), her community, her government. Her only road to freedom, it seems, was to hide and avoid being relocated off planet by the government with the rest of her community. As I said, I haven't finished it, but I'm very interested in hearing your views on this one. Unlike all the others I've read recently, it's the only one I still have a copy of at hand. Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:08:10 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Lindy Lovvik Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 19 Apr 1999 to 20 Apr1999--RECENTREADING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tanya Bouwman wrote: > I just finished Marge Piercy's "Woman on the Edge of Time" and would love to > discuss it with anyone who has read it--recently or otherwise. It's been quite a while since I read it. The impression has lasted a long time, however. Oh, how I wanted to live forever with Jackrabbit, Bolivar, Lucien and all the others. Connie (is this the 20th century 'lunatic' woman's name?) was a character with whom I identified closely. Piercy does a great job with depth of characters, I think. What did you think of this novel? What did you think of the PlayFem character? How about that funeral? Lindy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:49:20 +1000 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Recent Reading In-Reply-To: <371E71BC.60B623AE@meer.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:47 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Lindy Lovvik wrote: >I don't know why I'm having such difficulty getting through it-- I like >the main character very much. The story line is complicated enough to >maintain interest. > >I'm appreciating having an old woman character as central character. I >see her as an unlikely hero because she'd learned over the years to >submit to others: her family (spouse and children), her community, her >government. Her only road to freedom, it seems, was to hide and avoid >being relocated off planet by the government with the rest of her >community. > >As I said, I haven't finished it, but I'm very interested in hearing >your views on this one. Unlike all the others I've read recently, it's >the only one I still have a copy of at hand. I loved the main character - so much fun, and realistic. I could really believe in her, and Elizabeth Moon drew her personality so well. Some of the minor characters of the Terran investigators for example, were a little stereotyped and shallow, and the aliens culture wasn't given as much detail as I would have liked - but I saw the story as primarily one old woman's 'Journey' in "breaking set" = in that aspect, the book was excellent. Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:33:28 EDT Reply-To: Zozie@aol.com Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Recent Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started Leigh's Dark Water's Embrace last night, kept me up until two am, and finished it today. Got really interested in how the "third sex" was going to work out. Not sure that it was entirely satisfactory; but certainly interesting. Felt to me as if the end of it almost got away from the writer; almost went off in a different fantasy direction. A lot of this book made me sad, but a good sad, because I was empathizing with the situation. best phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:33:42 -0700 Reply-To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC Sender: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC From: Keith Subject: Re: Re [*FSFFU-LIT*]Cherryh/Weber Comments: To: Phoebe Wray In-Reply-To: <1a628ac8.244d2013@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > I need some help. I have been struggling through Cherryh's Exile's Gate. I > can't connect with it. A fantasy reader not connecting? Cherryh's work has > come up onlist several times, most recently a propos of my question about > what work the heroines do in sff. I don't "get" Morgaine. Somebody help me > out here. How do others on the list feel about this book, or Cherryh's work > in general? I am just bored with it. > I'll jump in here....I loved Exile's gate. The moody, remote, Grail-driven warrior is also integrally female, *and* as Lancelot a character as I've ever seen in fantasy type SF (comes complete with a nonchalant expertise with horses and swords) Add to that a believable male character in a role almost exactly parallel to the supportive, secondary woman who translates, humanizes and waits hopefully for romance from the superhuman hero. The result is my kind of knight-errant story. I don't think Cherryh does simple role reversal here, but she does have fully realized characters in the opposite places from where they usually are. I do wish she had included more powerful women among the courageous ones, but am very thankful she didn't go in for wicked witch schtick: any other woman but the heroine with power is evil, evil, evil. My two cents, anyway - Kathleen